Clay Trader Podcast
STR 237: Paying For College With Trading Profits
How would your life be affected if you could pay for something as big as college with trading profits? Knowledge pays. Putting a plan into motion that allows for you to take full advantage of what the market offers, while not happening overnight, is completely possible! I welcome back long time member, Micah, to update us on his journey in the world of trading. He first appeared on the show three years ago, so needless to say, much has happened in his journey since then. Micah is absolutely tearing it up and serves as a great source of motivation and inspiration in regards to what is possible with hard work and dedication. If you’re in need of some inspiration, then look no further. Let’s go!
Clay: This is the Stock Trading Reality Podcast, Episode 237.
Announcer: This is the Stock Trading Reality Podcast where you get to see the realistic side of a trader’s journey. Get inspired and stay motivated by everyday normal people who are currently on their journey to trading success. And this is your host, he believes IT guys are the weirdest people in the world, ClayTrader.
Clay: Now I don’t mean any offense, but I’m also going to be honest. You IT people, information technology, you’re a bunch of just weirdos. You’re just strange. You’re not like the rest of us. Once more, mean it in all senses of the word of compliment, but I don’t know, your brains operate a weird way, and this is coming from a former engineer, so I realize the reputation, the stereotypes surrounding engineers, but I’m sorry. And an engineer compared to an IT guy, we’re like the cool kids at school compared to you. And what brings this all up and kind of made me laugh is, a little context here, my family, we went with our group friends from church and we all took our families out camping. And Nate, who is behind the scenes at ClayTrader, he’s a producer of the show. He basically keeps the site up and running, and that is why I do appreciate and respect IT people so much because I don’t know. All I know is like GoDaddy sells domains, but after you get the domain, I have no idea what you’re actually supposed to do with it after that. But that’s Nate’s bread and butter, so he’s what keeps all that stuff going.
Clay: And we’re at the camp, campfire, we’re at the campground and we have a campfire there, and like any normal people who are sitting around like fire, talking, just having a good time, where’s Nate? Oh, there he is on his laptop and trying to make the internet at the campground… I still don’t understand exactly what he was trying to do, but the point here was it’s not like he was being forced to do anything. It’s not like he needed to do anything. He was just doing the something, whatever exactly it was, because hey, you know what, it’s a challenge. It’s fun. It has to do with the internet and trying to get these devices, and he’s over there just having a good old time. I think he had his laptop on his grill, and the rest of us, like I said, we’re sitting around the campfire and Nate’s over there, and I mean, like I said, it’s not something where we’re like, “Oh, man. What a poor guy. He’s just slaving away. He’s just working. He wants to be having fun right now. He wants to be roasting marshmallows.” No. He was having a good old time over there by himself plucking away on the internet, and like I said, doing whatever he was. I just don’t understand.
Clay: But you IT people, you’re a unique breed, but bless your hearts because without you, would the internet even function? I have no idea. Which just shows my ignorance when it comes to all this, but the world needs IT people, but yeah, you guys and gals, you’re a little weird when it comes to social interactions. But… Plus the IT guy here, Nate, he likes chocolate milk and tater tots and chicken tenders, so I don’t… That’s only a sample size of one, though, so I don’t know if that’s like universal for I-…
Clay: Actually, I’ll ask you as listeners. If you’re an IT person, listen to this. Do you enjoy chocolate milk with twisty straws and chicken nuggets, and like little tater tots and stuff like that, or are you thinking, “What are you talking about?” Because we always give Nate a hard time when we go out to eat. It’s like, “You going to order off the kid’s menu?” But that might just be Nate. I don’t know if that has anything to do with the IT or not, but like I said, I’m looking for more of a bigger sample size, so if you are IT, let me know what your food of choice is.
Clay: Moving on to today’s episode though, have a really, really good one. I’m super excited about this. And we are bringing back Micah, although Micah, when I say bringing back, I mean we’re digging deep. Last time he was on was three years ago, and I go over that again. Just a little, a couple times there’s some kids in the background. Not a big deal at all. It last for, I don’t know, maybe a few minutes, but that’s why I do love this show. It just made me smile because I have four kids. We’re just normal people that are trading the markets. We have families. It’s not like this is being done in some sort of New York City studio and we all have Harvard degrees. No. We’re just normal people. Just normal, ordinary people. We got families running around in the background. So like I said, it doesn’t last for the whole time, but nothing to panic about. Just had some kids in the background.
Clay: But Micah really is a good example, and I’m not going to offer up any spoilers, about you need to approach this trading thing, how you need to go about it, and how if you go about it the right way, are you going to be walking around with a fleet of Lamborghinis and a couple yachts? No. But are you going to have really practical gains? Absolutely. And from the title of this podcast, because I already know what I’m going name it, he’s literally paid for college by himself from trading. So to me, yeah, sure, that’s maybe not a fleet of Lamborghinis, but from a very practical standpoint, from a very what would that do for you if you could… What would that do for me if I could sit here and say, “Yeah, with my trading, I paid for college.” That’s pretty good. That sounds good to me in a very practical way.
Clay: So I don’t want to offer up any more spoilers or anything, let’s just get to Micah and get updated on him and his journey.
Clay: Micah, welcome to the show.
Micah: Hey, how’s it going? Glad to be back.
Clay: Good. Yeah, and on that note, I did my little due diligence before we got started, and the last time you were on this show was Episode 61 back on May 16th of 2016. So it’s been over three years since you’ve been on the show, and you agreed to come back on. Thank you very much. And I’m assuming, I guess I don’t know now that I talk out loud here, but I would assume that you’re still involved in the market and still trading?
Clay: So well done to you to have survived for that many years because a lot of people, they don’t even make it three months let alone three years, and I’m very excited to hear how things are going. For our little listeners’ context, Micah he’s not in the community anymore in sense of active in the chatroom or anything like that, but he’s gone through the training and stuff like that. So he’s one of these people where he’s kind of like the eagle learns how to fly, and he’s kind of gone off and done his own thing, which is very intriguing to me because sometimes I have to play a little dumb. But here, we have… Besides, face it… By the way, that reminds me. Thank you for the Facebook support. You’re always giving likes and you’ll throw comments out every now and then, so I appreciate that, and that’s kind of what spurred this was I was thinking, “Hey, wait a second. Micah hasn’t been on in years, and… ” So I reached out to him through Facebook and he agreed.
Clay: So I guess, Micah, why don’t we do this because it’s been three years, and all I remember about Micah is you’re a helicopter pilot, but besides that, I don’t really honestly remember that much. So I guess kind of nutshell, and I don’t expect you to remember what we talked about three years ago either, but kind of nutshell as best you can where all this started for you, and if you can remember where we left off from that episode three years ago, that’d be great, but if not, just kind of give users a little… or listeners a little background on what brought you to the market and how those early days went.
Micah: Several years ago, I got invested in a couple oil wells out in California, and that really was like, for me, was kind of… for me it was like, oh, well, why don’t we look into the market and trading. I knew some friends that had done some trading, but I don’t know if they ever did good or anything. They never talk about it. And so I started just totally blind, bought some equities or whatever, and yeah, completely got spanked on all that stuff. But I realized I was having some issues. I really had no idea what I was doing, and that’s when I got involved with your program, God, almost four years ago now. And I just started learning from you.
Micah: And then while I was doing that, I was… I got involved with a company as the Chief Pilot, and I was running it for, oh gosh, better part of almost three years. So trading and working full time is very difficult, if not impossible. But, I was able to learn a lot from your courses, and I was able to get pretty decent at swing trading. I think I did what everybody does is they get into options, and then they lose a lot of money on options, and they gain a lot. But it’s like anything, big wins, big losses, right?
Micah: So I did pretty good on that for a while, and then I think I contacted you after that vote on Brexit, I got a $9,000 loss. That was rough. It’s kind of funny looking back. I really remember the bad trades more than anything. The good ones, you don’t really seem to remember. The bad ones though, I think it’s a lesson that you don’t ever want to forget.
Micah: But anyway-
Clay: I agree with that.
Micah: I’ve had tons of good trades over the years, and I’ve done really well with it, but I’ve had, boy, those bad ones. I just… I’ve learned so many lessons from those, and they just, I’m like… So I’ve really steered clear of options the last two years, and just kind of really simplified my trading strategy.
Micah: Being a career helicopter pilot, and I’m not running the company anymore which is good. I’m working just strictly fires. That’s all I do. So I’ve got tons of free time. It’s been a slow year. I worked 21 days this year. Don’t tell anybody. But-
Clay: 20. Wait. 21 days? How does… I guess walk me… because there’s only been 21 forest fires? Or… is that how it works is your working amount is based on a function of how many forest fires break out across the country?
Micah: No. We have a… There’s different contracts, and so my… when I got hired on with this company, I was burnt out on flying and I was ready to kind of hang up my hat. And the company I got hired on out of… they’re out of Sacramento, they’re strictly a 12-and-12 schedule. But if there’s nothing to do, there’s no reason to fly you out to sit at the helicopter for 12 days, so you stay at home and just as long as you’re within an hour of the airport, that’s really all they want during your 12-day shift.
Micah: And the contract I’m on is called CWN. So it’s call when needed, and basically it’s when everything else has gone to… gone to hell, the Forest Service calls the CWN ships. They’re the last ones that get called. Of course they make the most money, but… So I’m on a CWN contract, so I just… I don’t work a whole lot, but usually when I get called, things have gotten really, really bad.
Micah: Last year, the last fire I was on was the Paradise fire. And that was, that was a humbling experience. It’s hard seeing that stuff because you’re watching people’s livelihoods, people’s everything they’ve worked for is up in smoke. And you do the best you can to try and save it, but… So yeah. So that was, in a nutshell.
Micah: But anyway, long story short, the company basically wants us to be around. There’s not many people in the world that can do the job, and they don’t want us to go, say, to the airlines, airlines are going through a massive pilot shortage right now and they’re soaking up pilots everywhere they can. And so it’s a good deal. It’s a really good gig, and it definitely supports my trading.
Clay: That’s awesome. I’m trying to… First off, like you said, I really agree with the whole… You could have a streak of 100 winners it seems like, and then you have that one loser. And it’s almost like not even necessarily the winner’s like some massive bloodshed or anything like that, but, “Oh yeah, I remember that loser,” even though you have all those times where you actually won.
Clay: But that Brexit one, what were these… Because you mentioned you learned a lot of lessons, and we don’t have to necessarily go through every one of those losses, but you mentioned that Brexit one and the $9,000 loss. Do you remember enough details about how that all played out? Because I mean, let’s just call an ace an ace. Listeners like to hear bloodshed stories. I like to hear bloodshed stories. It makes me feel better about myself for my own. So how did that Brexit trade all play out, and then what were some of those lessons that you learned from it?
Micah: Well, I think I had an options strategy set up, and basically after the UK voted on Brexit, everything tanked, and it basically completely screwed up my strategy and the options were going to expire I think within a day or two, and so I was totally left with my… left with my pants down basically. I had to eat it. There was nothing I could do. But the-
Clay: Was the trade based-
Micah: Go ahead.
Clay: Was the trade based around the news event itself, or was it just something that totally caught you off guard?
Micah: It was totally off guard. I had set the trade up two weeks earlier, and I think it was… God, I want to say it was a iron condor. I’m not entirely sure. But anyway, and it was totally emotion BS in the markets, and within a week, the markets were back to where they were. Then had I not been in options, it would have just been a blip on the screen. Okay.
Micah: The thing was, it was… I think I sent you an email, and I’m like, “I know that this is totally emotional. I know that it’s going to go back to where it was.” And you’re like, “Sometimes you just got to take it.” And within a week, the price was right where my strategy would have played out and I would have had a huge gain. But…
Micah: And that’s the thing. That’s why I’ve kind of steered away from options is just there’s too much risk involved. But not that they’re not bad. They’re good to trade, but for me, it’s just too risky.
Clay: That’s a great point, and I love how you came full circle there because I guarantee you, and I know you’re well aware of this too that there is some options to… or traders out there that just, “What are you talking about too risky? I love my options. I love… ” But notice he qualified the statement. Micah said just too risky for him. And that is always, for you long-time listeners out there, a common theme is there is no right or wrong way to… Well, there’s broad right or wrong ways to trade, but when it gets down to the nitty-gritty details, we’re all different creatures of risk tolerance, and Micah, for him options, a little too risky. Maybe for you, like I said, you’re sitting there like, “What do you… No. I love options,” and that’s fine. That’s just why anybody that’s sitting there saying, “Hey, I have the magic blueprint of how to trade, you have to trade this, and you have to trade in this style,” that’s a red flag. Be careful of stuff like that because everybody’s different.
Clay: So all right. You learned that options were too risky for you. And let’s see, when was Brexit? That was a couple years ago now?
Micah: A couple years ago, yeah.
Clay: So I guess, where did you go from there, there? You deemed options, you just didn’t feel comfortable with their risk level, so where did that take you then?
Micah: Well, I think I still traded options for another couple months or whatever, and then as I took over as the Chief Pilot and gradually got more and more responsibilities at the last company I worked for, I couldn’t… I couldn’t pay enough attention to the markets to actively trade really well. So I started just swing trading equities. And it was ups and downs. It wasn’t really consistent. I wasn’t making consistent money. I had a really bad brokerage that I was going through that I wasn’t… I was paying too high commissions.
Micah: But you know what? I still was making-
Clay: Who were you using?
Micah: At the time it was OptionsHouse, and I think they got bought by E-Trade or something. But I was originally at OptionsHouse. I was happy with them when they were OptionsHouse. But…
Micah: So I was making consistent money. It wasn’t life-altering money, which is another thing. I think as soon as you realize that you’re not going to make life-altering money doing this, you’re going to do probably okay. But if you think you’re going to go out and just make money hand over fist, then you probably need a gut shot or two.
Micah: But yeah, and I just did a lot of swing trading. And it was enough to where I actually paid for a year of college doing it. And so, I know that doesn’t sound like much, but it was enough that, you know, tuition was $22,000 that year, and it wasn’t any money coming out of my paycheck. It was just strictly off trading. So-
Clay: No. And that’s… that’s a great point and thanks for bringing that up because, yeah. A lot of people… Well, I don’t know. I feel like if you’re like, “Yeah, I paid for college, $22,000.” Now again, I get it, “Well, I saw somebody on Twitter and they posted a gain in one day and they made $50,000, so Micah’s a terrible trader.” To Micah’s point to circle back, that is the mentality where you show up and if you think that you’re going to be, you know, trade with your two Rolexes on and your cash all around your keyboard like some of these pictures I see on Instagram, that’s… here’s a little Business 101 lesson from the school of marketing. That’s called selling the dream, not the reality of things.
Clay: So please keep that in mind because, like Micah said, as soon as you realize the fact that you’re not going to be sitting there just lighting cigars on fire with hundred dollar bills, but you can still make money, and again, how… I mean, that’s a very practical amount of money to be able to pay for college, doesn’t come out of your paycheck, and yet you have a year of college paid for. To me that’s the name of the game. And trading, you need to view it as just a source of income, not some sort of money machine, not some sort of printing press. And once again, I will never call anybody stupid if they show up originally thinking, “I’m going to make money hand over fist. Money’s going to… ” I get it. I know the marketing that’s out there. I see a lot of this stuff in world of social media. So I would never call you stupid, but I would call anybody stupid if you don’t realize it, not necessarily right away, but that’s… Micah, that was poetry when he said, “Really the key for me was just accepting the fact that you’re not going to… ” It’s not the life that a lot of people try to portray on social media. It’s a way to bring in money for sure, paid for his college, but you got to keep things in perspective.
Clay: It sounded like you wanted to add some things in there, because please do.
Micah: Well, yeah. It was actually kind of awesome. So I was able to pay for college, and I had… I was making enough money where I paid for some odds and ends, and then finally, I was straight up maxed out. Went to college. Did my four-year degree in two years. A hard degree too. And I was-
Clay: What degree?
Micah: It was-
Clay: Engineering of some kind?
Micah: Aviation Science. So it was a science degree, which was lot of math.
Micah: But I took two classes that I can’t tell you how much they helped me in trading. One of them was Operations Management. The other one was Accounting. And so those two classes-
Clay: How so?
Micah: So Operations Management talked a lot about how companies operate, how they inventory, and… things that you would look for for a company doing good. And then Accounting really taught me how to read like the quarterly reports and that kind of stuff.
Micah: And so I didn’t even know it at the time that it was going to help me that much. But I did good. I graduated college with a 4.0. Busted my butt, and those were two of the classes that I think I took more out of than like Advanced Aerodynamics or any of that stuff.
Micah: I read a book shortly thereafter, shortly after finishing, was The Art of Short Selling. And the whole book was about basically those two classes. I don’t know if you’ve ever read it, but it’s a great book. And it talks about some of these people that are just… specifically a guy named Frank Lorenzo who just ran airlines into the ground in the ’80s. And I’m like, I just wrote a huge paper on this guy. And so, this stuff all comes full circle. And then it talks about what this guy was doing and what some of these other companies were doing that basically tanked these companies, and it showed how to find it in the quarterly reports because these people do some shady stuff.
Micah: And I’ve been able to incorporate that with having this new job and free time into a swing-trading strategy that’s been decent. Once again, not losing perspective of the situation, but just having a little bit of reassurance. Like I think using the knowledge that I’ve gained over the years, I feel much more confident about pressing the buy or the sell button vs. just, “Okay. I hope it goes in my favor.” Was that… I hope that makes sense.
Clay: No, it makes really good sense because you’re absolutely right. Mass indifference and being, “Well, let me press the button. As soon as I hit that button, I’ve got my fingers crossed, and let’s see what happens,” and then sitting there like you’re saying, pressing it with confidence, but also realizing, “Hey, there’s no such thing as a guarantee in the market, but I’m confident in my decision-making process. I’m confident in the conclusion that I’ve reached because well, I’m not guessing. I actually put thought into this. I didn’t sign up for some hot stock pick on the internet.” So that makes perfect sense and you’re absolutely right.
Clay: So it sounds like though that as of right now you’re using… Do you still use charts in your analysis, or are you straight up just looking at quarterly reports and balance sheets and all that good stuff?
Micah: No, I’m absolutely using charts. Charts are huge. The trend is your friend. I am definitely using charts, but I’m doing the quarterly reports too, are helping me out a lot. And I almost wish you would do a class on them just because I think that boy, there’s just so much that you can learn from those. But they are really confusing if you don’t know what you’re looking at. But no, yeah, charts and the technicals are, especially if you’re into swing trading, I think it’s absolutely essential.
Micah: And so, I talk about swing trading a lot. I also do day trading, but it’s not… I don’t live to day trade. I don’t like to sit in front of a computer. If that makes sense. And when I do the day trading, I try to keep it in perspective.
Clay: Let me cut you off there and be rude and just-
Micah: Go ahead.
Clay: We’ll isolate day trading off in its little corner for now. I want to more so… because I’m curious what this whole swing-trading thing. So I guess, do you have a trade you could walk us through, because what I’m-
Clay: … trying to figure out is what’s your process? Do you start with the chart and find something, let’s just say, in a downtrend, and then you start to look in the quarterlies? Or do you first start with the quarterly reports and the balance sheets, and then you go match everything up with a chart? But maybe it’d be best if you have some sort of trade off the top of your head that you can walk through your whole thought process. That might be the best way to go about it.
Micah: I’ll walk you through a great trade that I got a little spanked on, but I came back and I did really good on it.
Micah: And so, okay. Have you heard of Spirit Airlines?
Micah: There you go.
Clay: I’ve heard of them. It’s from my quarterly report knowledge, it’s always like, “Oh wait. You want that slice of bubblegum? That’ll be $15. Oh, that bag of peanuts? That’s $25.” Yes, I’ve definitely heard of Spirit.
Micah: Yes. Okay. Everybody I know has either… refuses to fly them, or they’ve flown them and they’ll never fly them again. And it was just… I noticed this yellow airplane few into the airport I was working at a couple of years ago, and I was like, “Who the hell is Spirit Airlines?” So I started doing some digging, and I saw their stock was just going through the roof. It was like $65 a share, way, way up, and it was like, “Okay, that looks like it’s going to go to the sky,” right? And then lo and behold, it started going down. And I went, “Okay.”
Micah: And this was kind of going through my college career, whatever, and then say, oh God, back in December, I pulled up their last two years of quarterlies, and I just noticed they were taking on a lot of debt. So I looked at that, and lo and behold in March, they had a bad quarterly report. Okay. For the end of March, beginning of April, whatever it was. And I go, “Okay.” Well, I’ve kind of learned from my classes, companies don’t have just one bad quarterly report, because usually if it’s bad, there’s something that’s making it bad. So chances are it’s probably going to be two, three… You got to do a lot to change a downtrend.
Micah: And so, I saw it, I go, “This is garbage.” And of course it went down, and then it kind of bounced. But it was still trending overall down. And I think it was down in the… I want to say… $50s price range. And I knew that the quarterly report was coming out in July this year, or whatever, this last July. I knew it was going to go down. So I shorted it, but I screwed up and I shorted it to the point where it generated a margin call on me, which totally annoyed me, because it didn’t go down. Everybody thought it was going to go up, and it went up to like $55, so I had to sell some of my stock out of it, or I guess buy some back, to alleviate the margin call.
Micah: Well, guess what happened when the quarterly came out? The thing dropped $13 a share. And then it just continued to plummet, and now it’s at like $37 or $36. So I lost some money because it went up or whatever, and so I had to give back some of my shares, but I still stayed in there because I knew my decision was right. And when it was right, it was right huge.
Micah: And that’s another thing. Sometimes you get spanked, but I feel like if you just give up and move on, then that kind of defeats the purpose. If you make a poor decision, then turn around and make it right. But it’s… Because it’s overwhelming in the markets, and it will just beat you down. And so that’s something I’ve definitely learned is like if you think you’ve got the right decision, if you feel real confident about it, stick it out. You don’t always have to have the huge win, but if you’re going to get something, at least something’s better than nothing, right?
Clay: My question would be, at what point… so how do you… Because I get it, and I would assume we would both agree that you… you can be really, really confident, but crazy things happen and you just never know.
Clay: So do these strategies have some sort of stop loss, or how do you really manage risk, because to your point, I do fully agree. You know what, sometimes you make a bad decision whatever, you don’t want to just give up. You got to kind of stick with it. And all that is fine and dandy, but there’s always those situations where things literally just don’t make any sense and you’re like, “Why is this stock acting like this,” and I’m so… How do you hedge against, or how do you… how do you manage those situations where they could potentially happen? Are you using stop losses, or is it just… I guess walk us through more so the risk management side of things.
Micah: I definitely have my stop loss number set where I’m like, okay, this is all I’m willing to lose. But for the most part, when I trade, I try to trade in a range, I try to trade in the trend. So that kind of like, for me, that’s my risk. If it goes against me a certain amount, I’m out. It’s too easy, and I won’t look back. But if it starts going in my favor… And that’s another thing. I think people that trade, they don’t… they’ll run with their losses, but they won’t run with their wins. Does that make sense? They’ll make some money-
Clay: Not only does it make sense… Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense, and it’s absolutely true. Yeah, they let their losses get way too big, yet they cut their winners way too small when they could have had a much bigger winner. So yeah. You’re absolutely right.
Micah: And that’s… So like the Spirit Airlines trade. And so that generated that margin call, and it was well, I was within my area. I wasn’t… The stock was going against me, but I knew where it was going to go and I wasn’t… It wasn’t so much that I… It wasn’t money that I wasn’t willing to lose yet. But the margin call totally threw me off guard. I haven’t had one of those in years. But I think I just, I got a little greedy on it.
Micah: But then when it went in my favor, even though I had to give back a bunch of shares, I still ended up coming out ahead significantly. And I got out of the margin call.
Micah: But that was one of those lessons that it was like, okay, position size. That’s another thing I think a lot of people have problems with. And heck, I’ve been trading now for a couple years, and I still, I’m not perfect. I still make stupid mistakes like anybody else. Position size has been the most recent lesson I’ve learned. There’s no reason to have a huge position size. Keep it in perspective. And when I say that-
Clay: And honestly, I don’t know if… Go ahead.
Micah: No. No, you go ahead.
Clay: I was just going to say, honestly, I’m not quite sure if anybody every quite figures out position size because a lot of position size has to do with how fast something’s moving, or… There’s lots of other dynamics. I think the key, at least for me, is just getting really good at recognizing when your position size is either maybe a little too small or a little too big, because all stocks are different. All situations are different. So I fully agree with you, that I am by no means perfect in position sizing either, but I don’t know if there’s a such thing as being perfect. I think the area to focus on is just acknowledging when maybe you screwed it up, or maybe you’re screwing it up in the sense of, “Ah, I should probably be a little bit bigger in position size.” Would you agree with that? Is that what you’ve determined is some… every single trade plan has almost a different justifiable position size to go with it?
Micah: Yeah, absolutely. And that being said, when something’s moving in my favor, sometimes I’ll add to my position just to make sure, you know, you can get a little bit more out of it. But yeah, position size is definitely the biggest thing I think that kills people’s equity. It’s too much too fast. Thus… And I know-
Micah: … we have day trading in the corner, but that’s especially true with that.
Clay: No, you’re absolutely right.
Clay: Now is this something, the swing trading, this is… Do you have another trade? That was fun. The Spirit Airlines trade. Do you have another trade as an example that we could go through? And I love how the… or the whole trade plan started off with was, “Who was this big yellow plane landing here?” And from there it took you… Who knew that that big yellow plane would lead you to some profitable trading and some good lessons too? But do you have another trade to walk us through? Because this is… I always like talking to people like you that combine the fundamentals with the charts, and in the world of trading for you listeners out there if you’re new, there’s always kind of a battle between well do you use fundamental analysis, which is like quarterly reports, balance sheets, or tactical trading which is like the charts and stuff, and they like to make fun of each other, but to go back to the starting-off point, there’s no right or wrong way. But we really don’t have that many guests that use a combination of it, so I really like to hear these approaches. So do you have another Spiritesque trade you could walk us through just to give myself and the listeners an example of how both these things can both exist in the same world?
Micah: Well, I’m looking at a company Era helicopters right now, and I haven’t traded them yet. I’ve been looking at them, and their stock’s at I think about $11 a share. But if you look at the chart, it’s trending down. Of course if you look-
Clay: What’s their ticker symbol?
Micah: It’s ERA. The short-term chart’s trending up, which is a huge indicator for me that something… something’s abnormal. One, because it’s a helicopter company. Helicopter companies don’t make money. They lose money. But… And I haven’t traded it yet. I’ve got a reason for not trading it, but the… looking at their quarterlies, I’ve been going through the last… And I set this all up on a spreadsheet. And something that I’ve noticed between their last couple, well guess what? Their last quarterly they posted a huge gain, like a $15 million profit. And I go, “What the hell?” Because the last one was down.
Micah: And so I’m looking at it. Well, guess what? They sold 33 helicopters in the last year, and they’re reporting those assets as profit. Well, there’s something basic that I learned in Accounting. Once you get rid of your asset, it’s no longer a revenue-generating-
Clay: Yeah. How are you going to generate more money?
Micah: Exactly. So they’re reporting that as an asset. And I go, “Well, this thing is going to tank.” But, and I probably will short them here shortly, but the only thing that scares me is it’s low volume. They don’t have a lot of liquidity for shorting. And that’s just a little scary for me. That’s just a small company.
Clay: I was going to bring that up. I’m looking at the daily right now, and it’s at 35,000 shares, and we’re recording this as of 2:00 PM Eastern. So 2:00 PM Eastern end of the day, only two hours left in the day, and this is only got 35,000 shares. So I would have to back you up on your concern from the shorting, really from any perspective, but definitely from the shorting perspective.
Clay: And just looking at the price range. It seems like this is one of those that can really go… I’m guessing this is some sort of mid cap-small cap company? I just-
Clay: … an uneducated guess there, but… I concur. That volume is a little shaky. That’s super interesting, and I don’t want to admit it, but little things like that, it’s like that’s what I do like about fundamental analysis. It’s like the mystery of things where you’re like, “Wait a second. Yeah, of course you reported a profit. But that profit came because of sales. Sales of what? Helicopters, and you’re a fricking helicopter company, so how are you going to generate future money when a helicopter company’s selling helicopters… ” So, there is a little… Do you ever feel like Sherlock Holmes kind of? You’re trying to debunk and figure out the mysteries and all that sort of stuff?
Micah: That’s the best part about it. It’s the fun. It’s the journey. And then when you’re right, it’s like the icing on the cake.
Clay: Let me ask you this then. How… From a time perspective, do you have multiple swing trades on at once, or is it trade something where you’re only making one swing trade every couple of months? Or you only have… I get… Because right now, you’re talking about this helicopter… stock which is a good example. So you’ve clearly been stalking it. You’ve been researching it. You’ve had your Sherlock Holmes cap on. But you haven’t taken any action with it. So how… what is some sort of timeframe for something? And then let me attach this question to it. Right now using Era, the helicopter company, you’re clearly researching and stalking it, but do you have any other current swing trades on right now?
Micah: Yeah, so-
Clay: How does that work? How many trades do… Walk us through, I guess, the logistics of how many trades you like to have on at once, how much time you’re researching, and all of that.
Micah: I usually have at least one going on. But I’ve got two swing trades right now, and then I’ve got enough equity to where I can day trade. Like yesterday, I day traded for two hours, and so that’s… I just kind of keep that going. I feel like the swing trades are for the most part, you know where they’re going to go. Especially based on your chart analysis. And then your day trades just like… I do that just to add a little bit more equity to my account.
Micah: But the thing with day trading is it’s I feel like… it’s so easy to get whipsawed, and then you’re just like, “Well, damn.” And then it goes against you, and then you’re just… You don’t make any money. You don’t lose any money. You’re just… you kind of break even at the end of the day and you’re just paying a commission.
Micah: But sometimes day trading works out pretty well. But the swing trades I feel like, I haven’t really had… I’ve been pretty comfortable with the swing trades. And right now I’ve got two that are both moving in my direction. They’re both longs, they’re not shorts, but they seem to be doing… they seem to be doing what I want them to do.
Clay: And how did you come about… the same process that you’ve been sharing? You started off with quarterly reports in combination with charts?
Micah: These two are just based on charts. And because there’s not really-
Clay: Oh nice.
Micah: These two are just strictly charts. And one of them is the ticker symbol BRZU, and I think I actually-
Clay: Oh yes. That sounds familiar.
Micah: Yeah. I got with you on that. I was shorting that one last month, and I went to increase my position, and they ran out of shares to short. There was no more. Which I immediately was like, “Okay. Now I feel really good about this.” And it did exactly what I wanted it to. I got in at like, I think I got in at $29, and I got out right at $23. And then I went back and I’ve been long on-
Clay: Nice one. Yeah. Nice.
Micah: And now I’m long on it, and I’m… If you look at your 200 and your 50 SMA, they’re sitting right there at 30, and that’s where I’m going to get out.
Clay: Yeah, they’re basically sitting on top of each other.
Micah: I’m like, “Okay. Well, that makes sense.” I don’t know if there’s a quarterly report on that. I don’t think there is. I think that’s a combination of what’s going on in the world. But it-
Clay: That’s actually a good question. Yeah, I don’t think the ETFs are… especially those… That’s one of those juiced-up ones, yeah. The 3X-leveraged ones?
Clay: Yeah, those ones can be… If you don’t mind sharing, and real quick. Listeners, don’t go and puppet trade this because keep in mind, when Micah and I are talking, this interview won’t go live for a few more weeks, so not only are you severely far below where Micah already got in, but by the time you’re listening to this, you’re that much farther. So none of this is a buy or sell recommendations. Neither him or I are professionals. We’re just two guys just hanging out talking stocks. So there’s the word for my lawyer real quick that none of this should be taken as buy or sell advice. But if you are willing to do the other long that you currently have on, walk us through the logistics of that.
Micah: The other one is an ETF on natural gas. And it’s the ticker symbol UGAZ, which was-
Clay: Oh, UGAZ.
Micah: … coincidentally the first one that just kicked me in the nuts. I lost money on that. But I’ve never stopped looking at that chart. And so, I got into it at $18, and it’s… it’s sitting right in there around $23 today, I think. And we’ll see where it goes, but I’m ready to sell it at any point here just because that thing’s so risky.
Clay: Yeah. That thing can move. What made you… because I’m looking at the chart now, and I’m not saying that was a stupid decision to get in at $18. I’m asking out of curiosity, what were you… was it some sort of breakout trade that you were getting in at $18, or what prompted you to get in right around that $18 mark? Which was clearly a good entry given it’s currently up $5 more from there.
Micah: It crossed the 50 SMA. And it was consistently it crossed it. And I was like, “Okay. This is a good point. This is a good entry.”
Micah: In terms of a day trading symbol too, that one’s really good. It’s a pretty volatile, pretty volatile symbol. It does a lot whipsawing all day long. And it’s fairly easy to predict. But sometimes-
Clay: And it’s again, one of those… Yeah, you’re definitely… I mean you’re a helicopter pilot, and so clearly you like some adrenaline in your life. So both your current longs are the juiced-up 3X-leveraged ETFs. I can’t say that I’m shocked that a helicopter pilot that flies over fires is trading stuff like that. But, it’s all… all has to do with the risk management and all of that.
Clay: Now, we’ll unlock the door. Thank you very much for allowing me to shove day trading into the corner. So let’s unleash day trading. Walk us through that. You made a comment that it sounds like it’s just a very supplemental way for you to bring a little bit more cash into your account that you can then use for your swing trading. Is that kind of a… from a top-down perspective, is that the overall philosophy behind your day trading?
Micah: That is, yeah. Yeah. I don’t try to get too crazy about it. I try to keep things in perspective. If I do a trade and I make $25 on it, I am very happy. That’s a very good trade. It doesn’t take many of those to make $100 a day. And I’ve told my friends about it, my other pilot friends. I go, “Hey, man. If I make $100 a day, that’s a good day.” They go, “Oh my God, $100?” They don’t understand. I go, “Well, ask your average Uber driver. They’re lucky to make $100 a day. Go ask your average waiter at a restaurant, or a waitress. $100 a day is good money to them.” And so I’m like, don’t lose perspective. If I can get into a trade and make $25, do that four or five times in say 30 minutes, I’m good. I get out. Because that keeps greed from setting in. And it’s not hard to do that. And if you run with your profits, you can make a lot more than $25. You can make $100 in one trade very easily. So that’s kind of how-
Clay: I just want to qualify one thing. I do agree that it’s not hard to do that, but it’s also not hard to do that for someone like you that has invested in themselves, that’s been in the market for a long time, and that, I mean, has worked hard. So I do agree there is a point out there where it’s like, yeah, as long as you’re not a greedy savage, there’s money to be made. As long as you’re not trying to be some Instagram trader or anything like that, there’s money to be made.
Clay: But there’s also the point where it’s like, but there’s a lot of time and effort that goes into that. Would you agree with that? Is that a fair disclosure on my part?
Micah: Absolutely. And the other side of that is it’s easy to lose that money too. And that’s why you’ve got to be so disciplined with just if a position moves against you, you got to get out.
Clay: Well said. Well said. And I was going to ask you, okay, these $25, how long has it taken? But you answered that three, four, five times in 30 minutes. That really puts things into perspective for me too. And perspective, which it sounds like we would both fully agree on, perspective is a great greed killer because if you put things in the context of yeah, an Uber driver would be lucky to drive around, not for 30 minutes and make $100, but drive around for all day to make $100, whereas Micah’s sitting here making… What the heck. Let’s just call it 75 bucks.
Clay: He does three trades. 75 bucks for 30 minutes of time compared to… I’ve never done Uber, but yeah. How long would it take an Uber driver to get $75 compared to the time in. Or a waitress, or anything like that. And I try my best, I don’t know how good it is I do at it, but especially on social media just try to like, “Hey, this is how much I made, but considering I made it in an hour or 45 minutes, I’ll take that all day long.” Sure, it’s not massive gains like you would see, but again, are you trying to sell some sort of illusionary dream, or you just trying to be like, “Hey, this is like a practical means by which trading can afford you.” So I’m all for 25 bucks, especially if it’s 25 bucks multiple times in 30-minutes worth of time.
Clay: Is your primary window, are you looking to trade right at the open, or are you one of these people that likes to wait 15 minutes or 30 minutes, or how do you view… Let me just ask you this way. What is your actual day-trading strategy? Are you looking for certain setups, or how do you find the trades and just go about your morning, because it sounds like you’re, and you already alluded, you don’t want to be chained to your computer? But walk us through the dynamics of your strategy from the day-trading angle.
Micah: I kind of do a little bit of everything. It depends. Last week I was out in Washington working actually, but we weren’t going into work until 9:00. Well, the markets open out there at 6:30. And so I would get up at 5:30. I’d check the news, look and see what was moving. Look and see where… Say I’m looking at say Square or Apple or one of those, what happened overnight? Did it gap down? Did it gap up? What’s the overall trend of the market? Is it up and down? And so then, if that’s the case, yeah. Gap and trap, I’m sure you’ve heard of that, has worked pretty well. And at the beginning of the morning.
Micah: But normally, when I’m here in Colorado, I’ll at… 7:30 the markets open, and my girls are up and running around. And my oldest has to get ready for school. So I’ll let the markets play out. And then I’ll usually come in during the midday when everything starts channeling. And that’s why that $25, well, if something’s channeling say 5, 10 cents, in perspective if you buy 500 shares and it’s moving 5 cents in each direction, well that’s how you make your $25. That’s not a huge move either. That’s a very reasonable assumption on some of these equities. And I’ve definitely found that during the midday when those stocks are channeling, that that can be one of the safest ways to make a good day-trading strategy.
Clay: Yeah, I can see that, especially because it’s in a channel, it makes a very easy-to-see, “Oh, well it’s no longer channeling anymore. I better get out.” Or, from just even a risk-management point of view, yeah. But that’s the whole flip side is, “Well, I want to get started right away.” Well, that’s fine. You’re just not going to have the patterns that Micah is going to have as somebody that comes in later on in the day and stocks have had enough time to form most of the patterns and make things much clearer.
Clay: So from a… Because you have we’ll call it a job. It sounds a little too good to be true though, Micah. I don’t even know.
Micah: It does.
Clay: Are you still a helicopter pilot? I’m a little… yeah. First time ever, but.
Clay: Are you looking to make a certain amount, not necessarily just from day trading, but from your trading as a whole, are you looking to make certain amounts per week or per month? Or is this just totally, “You know what? I’ll form a supplemental income that I can use to pay for college, or that I can use for whatever.” Where does all this fit into your big picture life story, because you do still have a job, but how much influence or lack thereof does the trading profits play in within your big, like you said, big picture personal finance budget?
Micah: Well, for me this is… for me this is kind of just rainy day fund. The dishwasher broke the other day. We needed a new dishwasher. Well, there’s the money to go get it. I know that sounds bad, and it’s like we took a trip to Disney World back in April. Well, I paid for that all with my trading funds because my W-2 job, unless I’m flying, it’s enough to pay the bills and buy groceries and the mortgage and whatnot. It’s real nice. It is. I am the luckiest guy on the planet. Don’t get me wrong. I have not lost perspective of that. But I also worked really hard to get there.
Micah: But so the trading for me it’s… it’s kind of weird because I know a lot of people support themselves off of it, and I like to think that I could do that, but I don’t want to back myself into that corner. Does that make sense? Not really sure if that… Go ahead.
Clay: No, that… Basically you’re just saying, “I want another stream of income-
Clay: … and this stream of income is like my… funds/” like you said, rainy day, dishwasher breaks, takes to… You want to go to Disneyland, or Disney World, whatever, and all that. You made a comment though, you said, “I know that sounds bad.” What do you mean? What sounded bad? The fact that you took trading profits to fix a dishwasher, or what was that in reference to?
Micah: No. It was… that there’s people that they’ve quit their jobs and they make their whole living off of trading. And for me, it’s… trading’s been really good to me, but it’s… for me I don’t want to quit my job. I love what I do. I just… I also really enjoy trading. I enjoy the way you put stuff together, and I like to problem solve. But I don’t want to insult people that are out there that have worked really, really hard to really do well in trading, and some people have given up everything to pursue trading and lost everything. And so, to me I don’t want to sound crass because I understand that trading can really be… it can be very humbling. Does that make sense?
Clay: It makes perfect sense, and not that I’m trying to… I fully appreciate that you’re trying to be kind of sensitive to those situations, but I speak with maybe a little more callousness because the philosophy around here, the ClayTrader world is, I think I just released a video about if full-time trading is your end goal, you as in you all, then I argue that’s a really bad goal. Your goal should really be how do… multiple streams of income. And-
Clay: … trading should just be a stream of income amongst many others. So if you’re like, “No, I’m only going to do trading. I’m going to pour everything into trading so I can be a full-time trader,” no. You want to diversify your streams of income too, and that’s why, Micah, this is good stuff in terms of you having multiple streams of income.
Clay: But I wanted to touch on something. You said, “I have a great job. I have a great situation.” And you’re very humble about it, but… And then you throw out the kind of the asterisk, “But I worked really hard to get here.” And I’m curious, would you also say that another reason why you can live the life that you do is I’m assuming that you’re not… you’re not requiring that you and your wife each have Lamborghinis, that you live in some 10,000-square-foot house, that you wear around a Rolex, and that your wife has multiple Louis Vuitton purses. Is it fair to say that you’re pretty conservative in how you live? You’re not-
Micah: Oh yeah.
Clay: … needing all these fancy, fancy stuff?
Micah: Yeah. We have a Subaru, and I have an old Audi that’s paid off. Both our cars are paid off. We live very humbly. So there’s… We got two kids. Any money we have, they take.
Clay: And there we go. And that’s another thing that I want to get across to listeners is, yeah, Micah, he did work hard for it. That’s true, but there’s still that other side of things where Micah could easily, easily just destroy all that hard work by just going out there and putting himself into debt with all sorts of stuff that he doesn’t actually need in the name of, “Well, I worked really hard therefore I deserve it, therefore I’m going to go buy this brand new fill-in-the-blanks super expensive car, and now I have this depreciating asset that I have payments on. But you know what, I worked really hard to be able to get that car.”
Clay: Okay, well that’s… But Micah… And that’s the key. That’s the key. Multiple streams of income. But just live within your means. I assure you that… Once again, I understand why people have that mentality. All you got to do is cruise through Instagram and all that, but there can be great gain when you’re just like, “You know what? I did work hard for this, but I’m going to live modestly.”
Clay: Now I’m assuming you don’t feed your kids beans and water and oatmeal all the time, but there is definitely that… Does this make sense to you what I’m getting at here is your-
Micah: It definitely does.
Clay: I don’t want to say you’re frugal, because that almost implies you’re a total cheapskate, but you live very, I think you used the word humbly. I think… Does this make sense, Micah?
Clay: Or are listeners just going to be like, “What is this guy talking about?”
Micah: No. We have enough that we’re, you know, if we want to go on a vacation we can, but we don’t have… we’re not trying to show off every chance we get, or have the nicest stuff. I mean, who really cares? At least, to me, that’s not that big of a deal. What’s more important for me is the time with my family. I just took my oldest daughter out to Reno and we rode horses up at Tahoe for a week. With how little the fires-
Clay: I get it if you’re some… I was going to, just to piggyback. As somebody that is also a parent now, I assure you, doing that with one of my daughters or my daughters, or what… I’ll just go, one of my kids, that’s so much cheaper than going out and buying some Rolex or some fancy car. And I get it, when you’re young you’re like, “No. I want the fancy car.” It’s like, “Just trust Micah and I. We have a little bit of wisdom on you. We have a little bit of life experience.” There’s… time. Time, would you agree Micah is by far the most valuable asset, and the flexibility of time, do you agree with that?
Micah: One thing no matter how much money you have, you can’t buy more of. You’re never going to get it back.
Clay: Exactly. And no, you’re absolutely right. And that is… This is some good stuff here. Because sometimes in this crazy world people show up and they’re like, “Bling, bling, bling. I’m a trader. I’ve been watching all these Hollywood movies,” and it’s like, oh great. Here we go.
Micah: Here we go.
Clay: Here we grew up. Here we going. Yeah. There is… humble living and just hard work, nothing… H squared, there we go. Humble and hardwo-… Oh, there’s a W in there. H squared W. There we go. Being humble and working hard can take you far.
Clay: Well, I’ve been looking up at the time here. I know you want to be done. So we have a few more minutes, but was there any other points or anything else you wanted to talk about before we started to wrap things up? In the past we’ve had guests say, “Well, I wanted to at least bring up this point.” So was there anything that you wanted to comment on or just share or anything like that?
Micah: Not really. It’s good to catch up with you guys again. I will say this. Over the years I’ve had some questions, and you’ve always been real open to helping me out, and I really appreciate that. So for any listeners out there, Clay’s helped me out more than once, and I’m not afraid to admit when I’ve needed help.
Clay: Well, and that’s… there’s a whole another rabbit hole right there about… And I got… Let me ask you this because I’m curious. You’re clearly, let’s just speak bluntly. You’re a humble guy but you’re also a very intelligent guy. Aviation Science, 4.0, doing that while you have kids and a full-time job and you’re trading, so you’re one of these people that just crush excuses. But you’re clearly good at life. I’ll put it that way. You’re good at life. So how do you overcome… Is there some sort… And I don’t know if I can ask this, but you just said, “Well, I have no problem admitting when I need to ask for help or anything like that,” but how do you do that because you’re clearly good at life. So how do you keep that ego aside and just… Does that make sense? Because a lot of people, they think a little too highly of themselves and they never want to ask for help, or they never want to admit that maybe they need help, and I think that they have it all figured out, and, “I’ll be able to figure it out.” So how do you overcome that? Is there some sort of life experience that you went through, or has it just always been like that for you? Do you get that kind of, the core of what I’m asking?
Micah: Yeah. No. There’s a couple ways I could address that. The most simple way would be people that are more experienced than you, people who’ve been there, done that, they’ve got the stripes on their shoulders. You should listen to them. Don’t… It’s been my experience that people who have experience are more than happy to share their experience. Learning that, I’ll take you to aviation where you go and do something stupid and you see Jesus one too many times, and then you’re like trying to figure out, well what happened where things got so wildly out of control? And you can correlate this directly to trading.
Micah: And then next time you go out and you’re tasked with doing a job, instead of just to salute and execute, let’s go do it. You’re like, “Okay, wait. Maybe I’m going to get some guidance before I go and do this because I don’t want to… I don’t like being scared. I don’t like being in a situation where I might crash, or something might happen.” And in my line of work, that is very real. I have lost a lot of friends in doing this over the years. And then you slow down and you say, “You know what? I’m going to find somebody who’s been there and done this, and I’m going to ask them how they would go about doing this. And I’m going to listen to them. And then we’ll see how that plays out.”
Micah: And so that’s something that… it takes, what do they say? Bad experience is a good teacher? It takes… you got to kind of put yourself out there sometimes, and sometimes there’s only one way to learn. Once you’ve been there and you’ve been spanked, then you’re going to say, “Okay, now I need to go back. I don’t know everything. I’m going to find somebody who knows more than me, then I’m going to at least ask him about it. See what they think.” Just get something. Maybe some, one sentence is enough to change the way you look at a situation, whether it’s life, whether it’s trading, whether it’s your career, and just completely reevaluate your approach to it.
Micah: I think a lot of people, especially in the trading community, are probably all too proud to ask for help. There’s… I do know people at my company that trade on the side, and it’s easy to see the egos. I’m just like, “Okay, man.” Well, the one guy that got into it last year, he’s not doing it anymore. So, just put it there.
Clay: Enough said. Ego’s best friend is a humble pie, so that… yeah. I guess you really don’t need to say anything more because that summarizes it all very perfectly. And I think that’s a great way to end this as we’re coming up on the hour which was perfect timing. I know you want to get done here in a few minutes, but are you all set? You need to get anything else off your chest, or you good?
Micah: I’m good, man. I enjoyed this. I really enjoyed it. Hopefully in three more years I can come back and give you an update.
Clay: Well, I feel like maybe let’s make it… not three months, but let’s do it a little less than three years if we can do our best. But yeah, again I thank you for your support on Facebook. That’s awesome. I’m used to seeing Micah. I’m like, hey there… all right. Good. We’re a go. And that’s like you said, that’s what got us all on here. And thank you. It was not like pulling teeth. It was a simple message, and we got, “Oh yeah, sure. I’ll come back.” So I always enjoy people like you where I don’t have to use my Jedi mind tricks to get you to come on here. And I’m glad to hear that you had a good time with it.
Clay: Thank you again for coming on and sharing your story, for being candid and not trying to act like you never have any losing trades or anything like that, and I look forward to hearing how things continue to go. And but yeah, Micah, thank you very much.
Micah: And next time you guys are in Colorado, I’m going to make a point to come and hang out. When you guys have a trader… a Meetup, so I’ve been meaning to do that. I’m going to make that happen. I appreciate it.
Clay: That would be great, man, and yeah, Colorado’s a great spot for sure, and a lot of stuff to do out in Colorado. And plus we now have direct flights from Grand Rapids, so it’s pretty straightforward to get out there. But thanks again, Micah.
Clay: And now for you listeners out there, before we go, a couple things. First off, if you’re listening on iTunes or any of the other podcast players, then make sure to subscribe. And especially on iTunes, if you could leave us a rating, or better yet, a written review, those really help us out and help out in a big way. So even if you never join the community or invest in any of the courses or anything, that’s totally cool, but like I said, if you enjoy these, just help us out by leaving a rating and a written review, and that goes a long way.
Clay: And then if you’re listening at ClayTrader.com and you want to give any sort of feedback, questions, suggestions, any of that, there is a live chat box on the bottom right-hand corner of the screen that you can click on and that’ll put you in touch with either myself or Nate. But if you want to talk with me, just say, “Hey, I’d like to talk with Clay”, and then, I might not be there at that exact second, but I will definitely get back to you, and I always enjoy hearing people say, “Hey, I listen to the podcast and you told me to come here.” It’s like, “Perfect. What do you want to talk about?” And then we can cross that bridge.
Clay: So again, thank you to all of you as listeners. Thank you to Micah. We will see you back next week.
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